When a Wife Doesn’t Want to Have Sex

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I’m going to approach this article a bit differently than others I’ve written. I feel a need to address both women and men on this matter, because it DOES matter. It’s a struggle, whether you’re the wife or the husband. Both feel very strongly about this part of their marriage. This article addresses the issue of when a wife doesn’t want to have sex. But it also addresses what it is like for the man to be refused.

I totally agree with something Dr Phil McGraw has said on his television program,

“Sex might not be everything but it registers higher (90 percent) on the ‘importance scale’ if it’s a source of frustration in your relationship. It is a gigantic issue, if your sex life is unfulfilled. On the other hand, couples that have satisfying sex lives rate sex at only 10 percent on the ‘importance scale.'” (From Ten Relationship Myths)

For both husband and wife, it’s a huge problem if they aren’t in agreement.

First: To The Husband Whose Wife Doesn’t Want Sex

I can’t even start to know the frustration you’re experiencing. I’ve listened to men (and my own husband) as they’ve voiced their anxiety and grief and utter angst over this issue. However, because I’m not a man, I don’t really understand it in the same way another man would.

So, when I came across a series of articles written by Paul Byerly, and I saw the value of what Paul has written, I determined to let him address this issue from a man’s perspective. He and his wife Lori have a wet site called The Marriage Bed. Paul knows what he is talking about on this issue.

So men, please read the following series of articles posted on The-generous-husband.com web site (you may even want to question him about this matter):

WHY WIVES SAY NO TO SEX, AND WHAT A MAN CAN DO ABOUT IT

NON-SEXUAL TOUCH AND SEX

THE SIN OF BUSYNESS

And then here is a great article written by Sheila Wray Gregoire on this same issue. Sheila addresses husbands, helping them to figure out why she doesn’t like sex in the first place. And then what to do about it. We encourage you to read this article (and comments posted below it). Sheila does a great job in explaining things:

FOR THE GUYS: When Your Wife Hates Sex

— ADDITIONALLY —

Neil Black wrote the following articles, which you may find helpful:

HELP! MY WIFE DOESN’T WANT SEX

HELP! MY WIFE DOESN’T WANT SEX – Part 2

I hope men find the above series of articles, from both Paul Byerly and Neil Black, helpful!

Next: For Wives Who Do Not Want to Have Sex:

I realize that this is a complex issue for the wife who is denying her husband, as well. There are so many reasons why you may not want to make love to your husband. Some of these reasons may be lack of desire, his cleanliness, his demanding, abusive, controlling ways, which turn you off when you consider having any physical contact with him. And then there are pornography issues —either his or yours. Satisfaction is being achieved through false, sinful entertainment. We deal with many of those issues in other topics of this web site. Please search for them.

There’s also busyness, where you’re too tired to make love to your husband because of the demands of children, job obligations, household chores, etc. There are so many reasons why a wife may want to say no to having sex with her husband. Lori Byerly, of The Generous Wife web site wrote a blog addressing this issue, that you may find insightful. I sure did —probably because I have had to make similar decisions:

THE SEX QUESTIONS — WHEN SHE SAYS NO

These issues are also addressed within other topics on this web site. Please seek and you will find. It’s not that they will give instant answers, or every answer; they won’t. But I believe you will find inspiration and at least some help to make changes that are needed in intimately connecting with your marriage partner.

Past Abuse Nightmares

Also, there is the problem of past abuse from other men and how it may be haunting you today. When your husband touches you it sends off memory triggers. These triggers may remind you of the horrible hurt you went through earlier in life. It may also have stripped your desire to have even a loving husband touch you.

I can relate. I’ve been there and have worked through that extremely difficult situation.

I write a bit about it in the article:

• WHEN PAST SEXUAL ABUSE AFFECTS A MARRIAGE’S INTIMACY

If this is what you are dealing with, there’s also a few other articles you may want to read:

SEXUAL OBSTACLES: Healing an Emotional Wound

WORKING THROUGH PAST HURT

There may be other issues, such as addictions, and bitterness over marriage situations. Just so you know, we have articles on those issues on this web site, as well.

But whatever it is, please work on it.

They say, “Whoever wants sex the least has the most power in bed.” That seems to be true. If a lot of withholding is going on, there is a power struggle going on and the bedroom is “a lousy place for a battle of the will.”

I agree that there are seasons where we need to work on issues pertaining to our sex life together. But when it drags on to more than a “season” then there are problems. The Bible tells us,

The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and like-wise the wife to her husband. The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. (1 Corinthians 7:3-5)

You had to have known that before you married that it isn’t good to deprive one another. Being intimate and exclusive with each other is all part of being married. If you wanted to withhold having sex with your spouse, you shouldn’t have married.

Perhaps you have changed in your libido or your desire.

Keep in mind that marriage is not all about you. This is a partnership. And just like your husband needs to work with you on compromises, you need to work with him on compromises too.

But be careful in how you do this. Don’t just lay there and let him be intimate with you, while you pout and think, “just get it over with.” That won’t satisfy your husband (or you) either. Marriage is about giving. It is stated throughout the Bible, that it’s more blessed to give than to receive. We’re also told to serve one another, with a good heart. Jesus was our ultimate example in being a servant. As we’re told in Philippians 2 we’re to, “have this same attitude as Christ Jesus.

You know deep in your heart if you’re being difficult with your husband. You also should know that you’re asking more of him than you should if you keep rejecting him sexually. And yet you’re expecting him to be celibate because you also expect him to stay faithful in all ways.

Yes, he should stay faithful.

That’s what God expects of him too. But if you are not being intimate with him if he wants and needs you, you’re putting temptation in front of him. You’re putting him in a corner where he can feel trapped. He can’t be intimate with you and yet he has needs. A life sentence of celibacy can be a frightening life for someone who needs that connection with the one he loves and wants. His sexual desires won’t quit plaguing him, just because you say no.

I have to admit that there have been times when I didn’t “want it” when my husband approached me. There was even a LONG period of time when I was dealing with past sexual issues where I denied my husband. I now know that I was wrong in what I did and what I expected of him. I know I didn’t have to to meet his every need when I was hurting so deeply inside. But I needed help to get past the mental torture I was experiencing, and it was wrong of me not to get it. We didn’t have to stay stuck in that place for so long.

My husband pleaded with me and I just looked the other way thinking, “He just needs to control himself. He should understand how painful this is for me.”

A Time for Everything

Yes, it wouldn’t have been too much to ask my husband to “control himself” for a period of time while I was in the depths of therapy. And yes, as my marital partner, he should understand (to a certain degree) how painful this was for me. But I took it way beyond reasonable. Steve really COULDN’T understand my reactions or the depth of my pain. And even if he tried to understand (which he did), I still needed professional help to work through my issues. And then we could work together on ours so this wasn’t something that would go on and on without an end in sight.

I was being unreasonable in my expectations of him. He married me in good faith that we would be marriage partners. Yet I was withdrawing an important connection in that partnership. And whether it was because of past abuse or whatever, it was not reasonable for me to ask my husband to stay pure and not be with me either. I feel that is true in most marriages (unless there are untreatable physical reasons).

Work on your issues.

If there are treatable physical, emotional, or whatever reasons why you can’t get together, please work on them. Don’t deny your spouse and sentence him to a life without you or anyone else. He wants you and no one else. Please work on your issues.

If the reason you can’t be with him is because of physical pain or because of some other physical reason, then work with doctors on this. If it truthfully can’t be medically resolved, then look for other ways to satisfy him. But do it with a good attitude. And if you can’t do things in a “conventional” method because of physical limitations, then find ways to satisfy each other in other ways. Be creative.

The important thing is that you are together, as a man and wife. Just don’t allow any other human being to be involved with both of you (either physically or visually), in your time together. This is YOUR time to be together. Please don’t ask your husband to lead a celibate life if that is not what he desires.

There was a long, long (unreasonably long) season where I pulled back from being intimate with my husband. Eventually, I woke up and realized that I had a good guy that I married. He didn’t deserve to be another victim to what had happened to me in the past. I sought for, and received the emotional help I needed to work through my issues. We eventually came together, and have loved on each other since.

Helpful Resources:

There have been a few dry spells, even after I dealt with my past, where I haven’t wanted it as much as my husband desired. The book, Sacred Sex: A Spiritual Celebration of Oneness in Marriage, written by Tim Alan Gardner has given me insights. Also  the book, Intimate Issues: Twenty-One Questions Christian Women Ask About Sex, written by Linda Dillow and Lorraine Pintus helped me. I now “get it” as far as better understanding the emotional and spiritual connection that comes from making love as husband and wife. It’s not ONLY physical connection (although that’s important —especially to the spouse who needs it), but there is more to this whole thing than many people (especially women) realize.

God showed me I am not to deny my husband when he needs to be close to me, whenever it is possible. Yes, some times I fall into bed exhausted or I’m not feeling well, and then it happens; he approaches me. But instead of totally denying him, I either offer a “quickie” or ask him if we can be together at another time. (And I make sure it’s soon.) My husband is a reasonable man and that has worked for us.

But what if you don’t feel like it?

If it’s just because I don’t “feel like it” —even then, I offer the same. But most of the time, even if I don’t feel like it, I’ve learned to pray. I ask God to give me the desire. There is a spiritual component involved, when my husband and I are intimate together.

I’ve had times where I’ve started out with NO desire to make love to my husband when he has needed it. But eventually, I’m totally into it as I pray and concentrate on lavishing him with love, coming from a heart filled with the love of God. I’m enjoying loving my husband as much as he is in loving me. Making love then becomes TOTALLY satisfying and enjoyable. I never knew that God would answer that type of prayer, but He does!

Here’s a quote from Sheila Wray Gregoire to consider:

How often have you done this? You’re lying in bed, feeling guilty, wondering, ‘Is he expecting something tonight?’ And then your brain goes into overdrive. ‘Do I feel like it? I don’t know. Is he due? How many days has it been, anyway? If we start right this moment, how many hours of sleep will I still get?’ If you had started making love in the beginning, the silly thing is, you’d be asleep by now! We women often forget that our sex drives are primarily in our brains.

“Unlike for our husbands, arousal usually comes after you start making love, not before. But instead of jumping in, we tend to overanalyze things. Tonight, silence all those thoughts running through your head, and just decide, I am going to feel good, and I am going to feel close to my husband! When you are mentally excited about having sex, your whole body tends to follow. So stop thinking so much, and start doing!”

I hope what I’m writing here helps in some way. I know that there are circumstances where we just don’t want it. And most husbands have those times too. But please make it your mission to work on whatever it is that’s blocking the way of intimately connecting with your marriage partner in this way.

In closing:

Please prayerfully consider something that was written in the above mentioned book, Intimate Issues:

“Making the right decision is never easy but there are benefits to adopting the right attitude. When we choose to love selflessly, we honor God, we make our husbands happy, and we find more pleasure in our lovemaking.

“Dying to self is difficult, but it is necessary if you want to grow in godliness. Being godly means having a godly attitude. Godly attitudes result in godly actions, such as giving your body to your husband. This is easier if you surrender to God and allow His Spirit to work within you. ‘Nothing is impossible with God(Luke 1:37, NIV). God is able to give you desire where none existed before. He can help you exchange wrong thinking with godly thinking. And God can cause you to enjoy deeper intimacy than you ever thought possible.

“God, I confess that I have not always appreciated Your gift of sex —or even wanted it. I have shunned You and withheld my body from my husband. Forgive me. I want to be a willing and creative lover —but it’s hard. Please stir up in me passion and desire for my husband. help me get my mind off myself to You and humbly ask that You begin now to work in me.”

Cindy Wright of Marriage Missions International wrote this article.

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Filed under: Sexual Issues

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Comments

587 responses to “When a Wife Doesn’t Want to Have Sex

  1. It’ll be ok. Just find a hobby or two to fill the time. Personally, I do HIIT (high-intensity interval training) and long runs on alternate days. Keeps the mind clear and the body in prime shape. I also meticulously prepare healthy and delicious meals to reward and pamper myself. In short, spend less time obsessing about what you don’t have and more time enjoying everything else life has to offer.

  2. That was very helpful. I needed that because I have been feeling rejected for quite a few years and afraid that she cheated on me.

  3. I think this was well written – in a way that gently (perhaps too gently) points to some of the pride and lusts that cause much of the pain a damage in sexless marriages.

    Let’s face it, we women are consumed by our own selfishness and pride these days more than ever – to the point of denial. We want to act as though our lives are so difficult, tedious and sacrificial, as we find plenty of time for Facebook, Instagram, and whatever else it is we feel we need. The more we claim all the “hard” work we do to provide and raise our kids, the less we have to deal with the truth of the matter.

    We are to be help meets to our husbands – to support them and make them our first priority after Christ. We are the help them provide, not to act as the equal provider. Do we do this? If we did our marriages would have the joy God designed them to have. However, we would often prefer to fake it and act the part of a martyr. The issue is, this faking is clear to our husbands. They see the lies and hypocrisy of our “claims” and feel even greater pain by our hypocrisy and lies. Do we work to support them, or work to make more money for a “better” life (to keep up with the world)? Do we spend time and teach our kids to reverence and respect authority (and their fathers), or do we check off boxes each day of our accomplishments and expect recognition and appreciation through being left alone? Do we work as a family unit and team with the same end goal, or do we race through our checklists to free time for self… and claim exhaustion and hard work when our husbands “turn” is up?

    If we were left by our husbands, would our sex drive magically re-appear – or show up when we seek a new mate to replace him and fill the selfish hole we created. It’s about us, right? We are convinced at the need for women power, while we desire men to build our homes (physically) and fix our cars. We have been lied to for too long and we took the bait. Does your husband deny you of what you need and complain? Probably only since you stopped loving him (sex very much included). Wake up girls

    1. You hit the nail on the head. I advised my son to seek a woman who is not only Christian but accepts God’s plan for his wife to be a help mate. This has not been taught lately. Everything falls apart when women reject their important role; marriage, family, society all fall apart. Women have been given such an important role by God. Why they’d throw it away to be a secretary or lawyer is beyond me. It’s trading gold for lead. I think it has to do with selfish vanity and shallowness of character; Generations ago women were taught the importance of their roles. A lot of the brokenness in the world is a result of Eve and her daughters’ rejection of God’s plan.

    1. James, Yes, men need sex. But it is also true that many women experience extreme pain during intercourse. The good news is there are ways to address this issue. While it can’t always be resolved, in about 90% of the cases things can change for the better–both for the husband and wife. We refer you to an article on our website called Painful Intercourse (https://marriagemissions.com/painful-intercourse/). This can be very helpful in gaining understanding about the problem and what can be done to correct it. Inside this article are multiple links to other articles that offer additional insight and help. I urge you to read ALL of the articles. Cindy and I hope this will be the beginning of bringing the two of you together in sexual union that brings you closer together.

  4. Gynecologists can correct hormone deficiency that cause dryness, painful intercourse, or other issues related to sex. The bio pellets have combinations of hormones and dosage based on lab results. Regardless of cause if women or men refuse to seek help leaving partner without for years, I say it’s game on and find someone who can satisfy. Life is too short.

  5. I have stage 4 terminal brain cancer. I desire closeness but no sex. But he still wants it. At what point can I say I am done? Not at all until I am dead? I want to enjoy my last year.

    1. I’m sorry to hear this Sue. I don’t know where Cindy is, but I really think it would be good if she could offer you some advice. What can you say to Sue before it’s just too late?

    2. I’m so very sorry that you are having to go through this. I can’t even imagine how many issues you are dealing with–in addition to this one. I hope you and the Lord are close. This is a time to lean into Jesus, all the more.

      Please know that my heart goes out to you. I’m sorry that I didn’t see this until now. Thanks Jill, for giving me a “heads up.” I don’t always answer every comment–just can’t. But I definitely feel the tug of the Lord on this one.

      Sue, I don’t know you and your husband, or the dynamics of your personalities and your relationship. So I will have to give you a general answer here … requesting that you pray about what I’m going to say to see if you believe this is what God would have you do. I certainly am not all knowing. So pray about it. Also, if you feel the need to add more after reading what I write here, then please do.

      Many husbands–could even be most husbands (but certainly not all) feel closeness through having sex with their wife. It seems to be the way they are wired. When they are stressed they feel the need to be especially close to their wives. But they feel better after they have made love together–it’s a physical and an emotional release for them and afterward they feel especially bonded with their marriage partner. Many wives–could even be most wives (but certainly not all) feel closeness through intimate conversation, and cuddling and such. Sometimes this is reversed, and sometimes this doesn’t apply at all. But from all I’ve read, this seems to be the biological/psychological pattern.

      I would imagine that your husband is feeling scared of losing you and wants to especially feel close to you. That might be one reason he still wants to make love to you. Plus, he probably feels the physical need. (That doesn’t go away just by willing it to do so.) To the degree that you can, try to have compassion on him. Yes, you ESPECIALLY need compassion right now. There’s no doubt about that. And that is why I would try to have a loving talk with him. Tell him that you realize he feels the need to make love sometimes. Acknowledge that. He probably needs to hear that.

      But tell him that you are trying to make the most of every day you are given. And right now, making love just isn’t something you feel you can do right now. If you feel that you can, you will approach him. But ask him to please try to be understanding on this. You are trying to understand why he needs to make love, and you need him to try to understand why you don’t. This is a time where you don’t want to be fighting over something like this. Neither of you needs more tension–you especially. But you both still need to try to be understanding of each other and yet work within the realities of the situation.

      Right now your needs should take precedence over his needs. But to the degree that you can, try to be aware of his needs. It’s a difficult situation no matter what. But do what you can, and try to approach each conflicting situation with loving compassion. If he needs to have physical release… he has a hand. I don’t usually recommend this because it can interfere with the husband/wife bond. But this is a different situation. And if he needs the physical release and you can’t make love together, then this might help. However, don’t be snarky about it. Realize that it won’t be the same for him… but it could be a release. And then try to get close to him in other ways. I hope this will help. Again, my heart goes out to you and is with you. Keep in mind: “The LORD is near to all who call on Him, to all who call on Him in truth.” (Psalm 145:18) I hope you will lean into the Lord for His closeness, guidance, and comfort. … May God be with you.

    1. I understand, but why do women use sex as a leverage for everything whenever she’s angry or something doesn’t go her way? Today’s women think they’re the man and try and run the house, the kids. If a wife doesn’t want to have sex with her husband then the vows are broken. But that’s not so easy because they don’t want anyone else to have you. I often tell people to remember where they came from and whatever happens to them thinking they can change what the Lord has put in place. Remember your place; you have to give in and let your husband lead you. This is what the Word says!!!

      1. Women need to feel an emotional connection, guys do not. It’s not that we use sex for leverage, we just don’t feel attracted when you are playing the enemy.

  6. My wife said she didn’t want sex, and I’m perfectly fine with that. That was 40 years ago and I agreed with her and I told her I was going to move out to newly built garage work shop. We don’t have kids and really haven’t spoken to each other in all 40 years. We have been married 53 years.

      1. I’m satisfied with it, and I no longer care what she did all these years. We do our thing; I enjoy my working in my shop and working on cars.

        1. This is so sad on so many levels. It sure doesn’t reflect biblical teachings. It is selfism, pure and simple. I can’t even imagine the Lord smiling down at you and saying, “Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!” He couldn’t be happy with you emotionally abandoning your wife and not caring what she does with her life so you can instead “enjoy” working in your shop and working on cars. It’s a good thing Jesus didn’t abandon His wife–the church that way. We would all be hell bound.

          But at least at your funeral, those who are in charge will have no problem deciding what song to play to sum up your life: “I Did It My Way.” I hope that before that time you wake up and change the legacy you will leave behind. The character of Scrooge comes to mind and the wake up call he fortunately had before he died. If he hadn’t had that wake up call, it would have been most sad indeed. I hope you have one too. I pray you do. God doesn’t put us on this earth to spend it just tinkering around with things. We are to leave it a better place–to love well, and to show self sacrificing love to one another. That is especially true within marriage. It’s what we vow to do on our wedding day. And it’s what God expects us to do–to be promise keepers.

  7. Good evening thanks for sharing your experiences. I’ve been married for 9 years and for almost 8 years of our relationship it’s mostly when she feels for sex. Honestly, I’ve considered cheating on numerous occasions but because I decided to follow Jesus with my all I’ve not yielded to the temptation. pPlease give me some advice as what to do because at times I feel like giving up.

  8. Me again. 2 years and 1 month without us making love. Before that, maybe 6 times a year. I have no clue how she’s wired. Just really missing that connection. At the same time that part of me is dying. I remember how awesome the Holy Spirit is as it is the best loving feeling I ever felt in my life and that is sustaining me. Just wish she could trust in and share that union with me. Anyway, for all the guys and girls that struggle with wanting to share that connection, remember he has a wonderful plan. He loves all of us. Keep seeking Him first. Even as you fall down. You are Loved. 🙂

  9. Let me tell you something! You do not speak for God. Last year & half of this year, I had to have chemo for cancer. Now, I’m going through menopause. You have God sounding like He only thinks w/His genitals. God does NOT do that. Man does when they place their sex needs above what’s really best for their partner. I dare you to show me ANY where in Scripture that states what a spouse is supposed to do w/the example that I gave earlier or that it’s even sinful if they physically can’t.

    Instead all you’ll do is teach tired cliches & Christian-ese. There’s NOwhere in the bible that states that I have to provide sex for my husband if it’s harmful or detrimental to my health. It’s just NOT there NO matter how self righteous people try to gaslight and manipulate others into believing it is. Matter of fact, 1 Corinthians 7:6 VERY OPENLY states that this was Paul’s idea of how to prevent adultery. It was PAUL’S idea NOT the Lord’s. So, quit gas lighting and using manipulation to make others think that you speak truth.

  10. This is good information to finally get. I have been married for almost 28 years and the majority of the marriage has been very cold physically. I am not looking to find blame or bash my wife by commenting here, I just want to explain that I have been cheated on multiple times with multiple guys. I have found texts where it says that sex with her is so good because she loves it and wants it.

    This cut me so deep and I can’t help but wonder why she would go out of her way to meet the needs of other men, some of which were married, but is cold towards me and says that she doesn’t have the desire mostly. There have always been excuses why she can’t have sex. I stopped any advances years ago due to the pre emptive excuses. I’m not a pig, and I would never force myself on her. I don’t want to be with someone who doesn’t want me.

    I know the question is why am I still with her? Pressure from the church to stay in the marriage, not wanting to tear the family apart, financial interests also, however I realize now that I should have left a long time ago, but here we are. She is quick to claim what the scripture says about my responsibilities as a husband and I try to fulfill those responsibilities. Ephesians 4:26 Be angry and sin not, do not let the sun go down on your anger. When I can’t handle the torment of laying beside her and I leave to go sleep elsewhere, I hear this.

    I realize now that it is not wrong to feel how I have felt all along. Perhaps there IS too much damage done to get past it, but things cannot continue as they are. I guess we deserve what we tolerate.

    1. Joe, First, I have to say you’re a better man than I am to have stayed with your wife after “multiple times with multiple guys.” Yes, God wants us to forgive and work to restore our marriage. I can’t even begin to imagine any pastor who would have encouraged you to endure and stay in your marriage after all of the adulterous abuse you have received from your wife over the years. For her to throw the Ephesians 4:26 at you while she has completely ignored every verse in the Bible that condemns adultery is unconscionable. And you’re right; it is not wrong for you to feel the way you do.

      I have to say that I think you’re heroic for sticking it out for the sake of stability for your children. BUT, after 28 years I’m pretty sure your kids are mostly grown and gone. I’m thinking at this point that she never has…and probably wouldn’t at this point…agree to go to counseling to deal with her sexual addiction (she is a serial adulterer). While we would never tell someone to divorce–that is not our call–that is between you and God… I can say that you need to consider shaking things up a bit. You don’t want to continue to be hurt and also enable bad behavior.

      Right now it appears that she feels so secure in the marriage that she continues to go about “playing” marriage and yet not living the life of a faithful marriage partner. That is wrong on so many levels. It has to stop. It’s not good for you, for your family life, or for your wife. The longer you allow her to treat you this way the harder it would be for her to change. There is a good possibility that she will never change. But we have seen it happen. It’s remote, but it can happen.

      I would also suggest that you need to have a “come to Jesus” talk with her where you say this behavior CANNOT continue. But you need to figure out ahead of time what kind of consequences you can attach to this that will motivate her to make the necessary changes.

      We know you are in a difficult situation and wish we had a good solution for you, Joe. I’m sure you’ve prayed about this a lot over the years; and I want to encourage you to continue because I said earlier Cindy and I have seen God perform miracles in marriages just like yours before.